I'm reading some articles on the net about the North American Auto Show annoucements and there is one for the Solstice for 2006. Ugh...

Then it mentions this:

The Solstice is a two-seat roadster fitted with a 170-hp 2.4-liter variable valve ECOTEC DOHC four-cylinder engine and a five-speed manual gearbox. The car has close to a 50/50 front-rear weight distribution.

Where did the 240hp go to? DOuble Ugh....

http://autoshow.msn.com/as/autoshow2004/article.aspx?xml=GM1&src=autoshow2004

Allanon

Here are some details from a canadian site:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/040104-1.htm

Regarding the 170HP version of the engine being the only one mentioned, maybe they'll see what initial demand is before offering a more powerful plant. Or, they may delay the 240HP till later on, to milk more sales.

-Andrew

I agree with Andrew, I think Pontiac will bring more power to the car after its been in production for a while. Look at car introductions in the past like the Fiero for example. It was only offered as a four cylinder in its first year of production and then with a V6 later on (that's not to say that I think the Solstice will ever have a V6). The important thing is that all of the basics are in the car now: rear wheel drive, under 3000 lbs., coilover suspension design with double A-arms, easily accessible engine for maintenance and modifications, rigid chassis structure, good brakes. This is great stuff. This car has the potential to be an instant classic, and you know someone will drop an LS1 into a Solstice sooner or later (modern Cobra?)...I'm very optimistic!

I agree with Andrew, I think Pontiac will bring more power to the car after its been in production for a while. Look at car introductions in the past like the Fiero for example. It was only offered as a four cylinder in its first year of production and then with a V6 later on (that's not to say that I think the Solstice will ever have a V6). The important thing is that all of the basics are in the car now: rear wheel drive, under 3000 lbs., coilover suspension design with double A-arms, easily accessible engine for maintenance and modifications, rigid chassis structure, good brakes. This is great stuff. This car has the potential to be an instant classic, and you know someone will drop an LS1 into a Solstice sooner or later (modern Cobra?)...I'm very optimistic!
This is all well and good, but will we wait 2 years for the car we want today? I can't say I will, as much as I like what I've seen. I think this decision (if it stands) will not help Pontiac sell as many units as they wanted to. Most people will wait to get the "Hot Car"... Won't they? What about you guys? Would you buy the car just to get this basic platform? They better strike while the iron is hot...red hot!

Lutz said at the introduction that the car would be out in a year and a few months.Fall of 2005 basically.And that's for the 170 HP version.I love the car but probably will want something else by that time or already have something else.Not to mention the base car I'm guessing will probably run 15's in the quarter.Just not enough power for spirited driving. It's unfortunate because they did a great job bringing the concept to production without dulling those great body lines.Interior looks great too.

Since the supercharger initially specified was an off-the-shelf unit,
and since the original price specified was "under $25,000" I'd say the
idea is to announce the 20 grand model with the 170HP engine,
continue durability testing on the 240 HP SC version, and if it's
ready for warranty by production time, stick it in. There's no drivetrain problem, what with the Corvette 6 speed for the extra power. Ditto the
rear end off the truck platform. Therefore the swap is a done deal
except for warranty testing, since engine combo had never been used before. With Lutz's record so far, I'd say the 240HP version will beat
intro, or soon after, as upgrade package. He did originally say under "$25,000," which never means the 20 grand just announced.
I'd wait to see rather than trying to make guesses about what you really can't know.

Chip, the Fiero sold more units in its first (and lowest performing) year than any other year in its production run, almost 140,000 units in 1984. For this car to be a production success it must appeal to all sorts of buyers--especially women. Look at the introduction of the mustang in 1964, it was known as the "secretary's car" because it appealed to young professional women as well as the performance buyer. Ford sold several hundred thousand units of the mustang in its first few years, insuring that it would stay in production for many more. For the Solstice to be more than a flash in the pan it will need to have that base model available for the entry level buyer. Then we can have our performance variation of the car too. :)

IMASOLMAN ; I hear you but... The general didn't layout the 50-100 mill. (depending on who reported the numbers) for a upgraded plant to build the Fiero. If you mention the name Fiero to anyone connected with Pontiac or GM they shudder. That platform was handled poorly from its early design considerations, start of production, and right up to when the last car came off the line. It's potential was compromised from the very start and it was a major blow to Pontiac in terms of its perceived low product quality. I believe it was because the bean-counters at GM forced Pontiac to cut corners. I can only hope that GM / Pontiac will not repeat that type of effort, or perhaps I should say the marketplace will crucify them if there is ANY similarity between the Fiero and the Solstice. I think Lutz is very much aware of the divisions need to be considered as a quality producer of automobiles. The SC'ed ecotec will be available on several other GM platforms, but you might be correct about them holding back on the Solstice until they know all the bugs are worked out. The marketplace is a cruel mistress! Pontiac needs to have the car available after all the hype of its quick design, but it has to be right. It's a tough business!

With those shouting for more HP (and I'm one of them, too) here's a few more points:

1. We can't forget that the kind of people on this board are probably not the primary audience for the Solstice. To take another car as an example, if you looked at the Miata.net forums, you'd think most miata owners were guys who liked modding, tinkering, and autoxing. The reality on the road is much different. I'd imagine that the members of this group are similarly unrepresentitive of what the likely buyer of a Solstice will be. Most people will probably buy the Solstice because it is an attractive, sporty, inexpensive convertible. Bob Lutz said that he wanted the Solstice to be an "inexpensive BMW" (http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jan2002/nf2002018_1254.htm) Most won't care that it has RWD, and most won't care that it doesn't have gobs of HP. IMASOLMAN also raised this issue.

2. If the low weight and the exterior design continue thru to production, this will be much more important than the initial performance ratings of the engine. Why? Because these are two things that will be harder to fix. Let's face it, if the car gains anothe 500 lbs., this would be much harder to "fix" than boosting the engine HP. If it comes out near 2800lbs, then it will be on par with the S2000, Boxster and Z4. If it doesn't, then it will be very expensive or near impossible to put it on much of a "diet". (on a negative note, I just read in C&D that the car is supposed to have "gained" 300lbs, since the prototype, though I have not seen this this confirmed/denied elsewere...let's hope its just a misinformed data point!)

3. While the car will only have 170HP, let's not forget that the torque will likely be much higher than with it's 2.4 liter engine than like a 1.8 liter Mazda miata's 125ft.lbs. As a result, the SOTP "feel" for acceleration will be higher than what you'd typically think of a 170HP engine.

4. Like others have been saying, the Ecotec plant is fundamentally boost friendly, which is a huuuuuge plus. (as an anti-example, see the high compression S2000 engine) How much work is required to boost a NA version remains to be seen, but if compression ratios, fuel delivery and some other boost-critical stuff is similar to it's FI'd cousins, then the aftermarket kits should be quite powerful and reliable.

-Andrew

Andrew; You might be right about the "typical buyer" but it bothers me that Pontiac when to such great lengths to hype the SC'ed car and then hold it back. Having said that though, I would not want to buy the car if the SC'ed motor was not ready to play. :)

Chip, yeah, it's disappointing. I'm wondering if it was a price-point issue as well--that with the SC'd version: if they couldn't sell the car for whatever the magical under $25K number that they had picked out. Also, combined with the schedule pressures, they might not have been able to come out with 2 engines by the release deadline, so the result would be a more powerful, but more expensive car which didn't appeal to the bulk of their target market b/c they couldn't afford, or didn't see the value of a more powerful engine.

Nevertheless, it is one of the more easily remedied part of the car, as I was saying in my long-winded reply above :) Imagine if it had turned into a the bastard son-of-an-Aztec looking vehicle, weighing 3600 pounds :) Just trying to look on the bright side here, but I feel your pain.

-Andrew

Chip, I totally agree with your comments about the Fiero (I keep bringing the Fiero into the discussion because it was Pontiac's last real effort at a sports car). That car had basic design problems from the beginning. GM used the Chevy Citiation for the front suspension of the Fiero and the front suspension of the Chevy Celebrity for the rear suspension on the Fiero. The car also got a bad reputation early on that it never recovered from. Mention the Fiero and people think of engine fires. Let's hope that GM has learned from and doesn't repeat these mistakes from the past. It appears that on the Solstice the designers are spending more time getting the basics of the car worked out. In an effort to cut costs they are using parts from other GM divisions (like the rear axle from the Cadillac STS, I believe). However the basic design of the suspension (coilovers on all four corners) appears good. It also looks like the car will be easy to work on and maintain. Have you ever tried to change the plugs on a V6 Fiero or a 4th gen Camaro or Firebird--its no fun. Andrew is right, these are the things that are much more difficult to fix later in production than adding more power.

Oh I forgot to mention, have you guys seen the specs on the new MazdaSpeed Miata that will soon be released? Mazda is adding a turbo and air to air intercooler to the car and it will now put out 178 hp and 166 ft-lbs of torque. I realize the Solstice weighs a little more than the Miata but suddenly 170 hp and 170 ft-lbs of torque for a naturally aspirated base model doesn't sound quite so bad. ;)

Oh I forgot to mention, have you guys seen the specs on the new MazdaSpeed Miata that will soon be released? Mazda is adding a turbo and air to air intercooler to the car and it will now put out 178 hp and 166 ft-lbs of torque. I realize the Solstice weighs a little more than the Miata but suddenly 170 hp and 170 ft-lbs of torque for a naturally aspirated base model doesn't sound quite so bad. ;)

Guys; IMASOLMAN's above post is exactly what I mean when I say that Pontiac has to strike while the iron is hot. It looks like most of the automotive world is starting to focus on smaller performance cars. No doubt trucks will still make a huge profit for them, but look at all the 2 place sportscars that are on the short term horizon. I won't beat this dead horse anymore ;) , but Pontiac took a bull by the horns and pulled off a great accomplishment by getting this car this far... Oh well.

So how many of you will put your money down for the car as it is set-up (now) to be released in 2005?

Oh I forgot to mention, have you guys seen the specs on the new MazdaSpeed Miata that will soon be released? Mazda is adding a turbo and air to air intercooler to the car and it will now put out 178 hp and 166 ft-lbs of torque. I realize the Solstice weighs a little more than the Miata but suddenly 170 hp and 170 ft-lbs of torque for a naturally aspirated base model doesn't sound quite so bad. ;)


The problem is the Miata weighs about 400-500 lbs less that the Solstice with the same amount of power. That's not good. The Miata will be here in months a 240hp ecotec solstice will be here in what 2.5 years the way its looking. I don't believe this is a good move on Pontiacs part. Plus like was mentioned before Pontiac pushed all the hype about this 240 HP engine and then doesn't deliver at the beginning of the production. That's marketing giving its direction. Not car lovers.

So how many of you will put your money down for the car as it is set-up (now) to be released in 2005?


This article (http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars_trucks/2004/1/04_detroit_live_4/) says we won't have to wait that long! :bouncy:

I could possibly be ready financially for buying one in 2005, but if it comes out this Fall, I may not be the first on my block to have one. :(

Has anyone seen a picture of the car with the convertible top up? I hope they did a good styling job with it also. I sure hope the car has a glass back window and not one made from cheaper plastic. 2000-01 S2000 owners can tell you about the joys of a plastic back window. :mad:

Has anyone seen a picture of the car with the convertible top up? I hope they did a good styling job with it also. I sure hope the car has a glass back window and not one made from cheaper plastic. 2000-01 S2000 owners can tell you about the joys of a plastic back window. :mad:

Here is a picture of the clay mockup with a roof on it. I would imagine it will be similar to this. Looks great from this profile.

That does look nice. Thanks

Following is an email I just received from GM where I asked them about the horsepower. Is this just an outdated/canned email?



Thank you for contacting Pontiac and for your interest in the new Solstice.

General Motors recently announced plans to produce the sporty Pontiac Solstice roadster at its Wilmington, Del., Assembly Plant. The production location was announced at the official unveiling of the Solstice at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit. The Solstice will be produced as a 2006 model year vehicle with pricing and delivery information coming in mid 2005.

Solstice captures the true essence of Pontiac in a lightweight, two-seat roadster that celebrates the allure of open-air motoring. Focused on the essential elements of driving, Solstice combines a pure, beautiful exterior with 220-horsepower of Pontiac Excitement. The roadster has saddle-brown leather trimmed interior surfaces, a two-gauge driver-oriented cockpit, and fit-and-finish honed to European feel and function. It went from sketch to running in four month's time, its development pace quickened by GM's math-based technology - and it has already been honored with an AutoWeek Editor's Choice Award as Best In Show at the 2002 North American Auto Show.

If you have any additional questions or would like to receive product information on any of our other vehicles, you may write back or contact Pontiac Marketing Support at 1-800-762-2737, between 8:00am and 11:00pm Eastern time, seven days a week. Thank you for contacting Pontiac.

Our best wishes to you and your family for a happy and healthy New Year!

Sincerely,

Jim Crozier
Customer Relationship Manager
Pontiac Marketing Support

Here is a picture of the clay mockup with a roof on it. I would imagine it will be similar to this. Looks great from this profile.

That is a nice picture.

Hi, just found this site and registered. It so nice to know that a lot of people are very interested to buy this car.

I myself is getting ready of saving my money for 2006. Can't wait, driving me crazy just looking at this car's pictures.

I just bought my Vibe last year and I already have the Have to have a new car itch. LOL


Randy

Randy; How do you like your Vibe? A neighbor bought one several weeks ago and she loves it. How is the build quality on yours? Any issues with it? Does it have a V-6 or the Ecotech 4? Questions, Questions.

Randy; How do you like your Vibe? A neighbor bought one several weeks ago and she loves it. How is the build quality on yours? Any issues with it? Does it have a V-6 or the Ecotech 4? Questions, Questions.

Hey, Chip

The vibe is made from the toyota matrix platform. the vibe is basically a toyota. the engine is a variable valve timing (VVT-i) on the base one. the horsepower is 130. The vibe gt has a VVT-Li engine which is basically a tuned up engine and it only comes in 6 speed with 180 horsepower. The car is very good. I have one myself and i love it. No v6's or ecotech engines since it is a toyota. hope this answers some of your questions.

There will be no V6, period. A 2.0 with a blower will be available for 07. HP figures are still being worked out. The final drive is a 3.9 posi. Thats enough for now, just wanted to give you some facts and shut down some of the incorrect info going around.

A blower for 07? I can't believe they will wait two years to introduce that option. Your ID implies that you have access to info. the rest of us don't. Your going to have to prove that before I (and I suspect others) will buy into that notion. No disrespect intended, but it's easy to come to a new site spouting "insider knowledge".

A blower for 07? I can't believe they will wait two years to introduce that option. Your ID implies that you have access to info. the rest of us don't. Your going to have to prove that before I (and I suspect others) will buy into that notion. No disrespect intended, but it's easy to come to a new site spouting "insider knowledge".

Remember - This car is an 06 - meaning it will be out in the fall of 05. For 07, (which means the fall of 06) This option will happen. The problem with validating your sources means giving them away - At GM that means your job. A message board isnt worth it. Have fun.

"At GM that means your job."
Yeah, I have a bit of experience with that myself. :)
Can you talk about the Kappa platform. Will it be the same for all the new models that will feature it, or will each division tweek it to their own spec.? If Saturn produces a version(like their concept car) will it use plastic panels for bodywork?

Fit & finish...a Miata will last 200,000 miles easily. A 100,000 mile Miata will still have the doors close with ever so light a push, the fit and finish is superior than anyone can imagine foir a car in this price range. After selling over 100 used late model Miatas, all I can say is GM has their work cut out for them. They may have gotten away with plastic body cladding to hide their fit & finish problems in the past, but sports car folks are hard core, fit & finish loving buyers who will not take anything that is not near perfect. PLEASE, no more ugly grey inferior material dashes, PLEASE, no more rattles, PLEASE let the car run at least 200,000 miles before ready for the scrap yard. You can take a beater Miata with over 150,000 miles on it, track prepare it with little modifications and race the daylights out of it for many seasons....THIS is what the sports car enthusiast wants, not poromises. Open the door on a Miata, look inside, take it for a spin, the shifting is short throws, like a knife through butter, close the door (ever so lightly!!!) and it reeks with quality....GM has it's work cut out for them, the next generation Miata is just around the corner, tauted as "the world's finest sports car" for the money...

You make some valid points. A few... but my question to you is, if your so fired up about the Miata why are you here? Speaking only for myself, your presence here will not be welcomed if your only going to flame a car that is not even out yet. Some of us may own a Miata, but I suspect many more want, or are waiting for the Solstice. This Kappa platform offers GM a shot at making money on a low cost low volume car. The fact that it is a sportscar and not a truck speaks volumes about their (Mr. Lutz and design team's) intent. Your right, they do have their work cut out for them, but give them and us a break until we all see the results of their efforts.

Very well put, I'm a genuine believer in the Miata as the world's best sports car for the money. As I am "new" to the idea of Solstice, all I'm saying is that if GM puts that god-aweful cheap plastic, painted in that aweful grey color on the dash of the Solstice, and tries to get away with the usual haphazard fittness of trunk, hood, and doors, as in the past, this car will be going in the same direction as the Fiero...in the toilet.
If they wanted to have a "great" sports car, and not just some modern designed run around, they most likely have taken the current Miata and driven the daylights out of it. OK, I'll refrain from Solstice bashing only because I havn't driven one, but trust me, the Miata is the one they are going to have to beat....and from what I hear, the new (completely hidden from spy photographers) Miata will have a folding metal roof, and gobs of new suspension technology all geared to improve on their ALREADY near perfect setup.
Hey, if a Solstice meets all I hope it does, it will be a good sports car, but to be a great one, it will have to top the Miata, period. Let's hope for the best, let's see GM come alive on this one.......

Hey watch it with the fiero i have 5 of them :)



with the usual haphazard fittness of trunk, hood, and doors, as in the past, this car will be going in the same direction as the Fiero...in the toilet....

Yeah, but you need all 5 to keep one of them running! :D I think we all can agree that the Fiero never had a chance of being anything beyond what it was. GM bean-counter dictated mediocrity! Pontiac can not afford to make that mistake again. It has been said at GM that the Kappa platform "will crack the code" and allow them to make money while producing a low volume automobile. Let's hope that along the way that care (by good design) is taken to allow the guys on the line to make a quality product. They don't like to slow or stop that line regardless of reason!

But, What are you driving today?

Take care-Steve

But, What are you driving today?

Take care-Steve

I have five (5) Miatas, the car of choice is a 2001 Miata with special suspension (factory option), ABS brakes (factory option), hard top (factory option), 5 speed, drives like a dream, shifts are very short throws, perfectly matched in EVERY gear, car will allow you to make any mistake you wish while driving it, feels like you are a part of the car after the first 50 miles!!!! A little noisy, yes, BUT this is a sports car, not a limousine...
The interior pics of the new Solstice remind me of the type of stitching and pattern you would find in a golf cart. Was this interior designed by someone who doesn't understand what sports car people want? Smooth seats, in the flat configuration like the photos indicate, aren't going to cut it for hard corner driving....back to the drawing board, the interior sucks!!! BLAND, BLAND, BLAND, BLAND..UGH UGH UGH!!!

Yeah, but you need all 5 to keep one of them running! :D I think we all can agree that the Fiero never had a chance of being anything beyond what it was.


http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/025998.html

:)

If you mean a high performance car that car give a corvette a run for its money then your right

I am not trying to start a flame war. but the fiero is a under rated car that has a lot of options .

Sounds like a nice ride. It's 40 years newer than mine. I have a Bugeye with a 1293 cc engine mated to a SCCR transmission with a 3.7 Diff. With Disk brakes, F & R sway bars, and Poly bushings everywhere it a real hoot to drive here in the Mts. of Arkansas.

Plus I have only had it for 36 years. Lots of miles.

I can remember discussions years ago about what was a Sports Car, my retort back then was always that if you did not bolt on the side windows it wasn't one. Now that I am older, maybe that was a bit too harsh??

Take care-Steve

Yeah, no need in a flamefest as it won't prove a thing. If your into the Fiero I am sorry I upset you. I will point out, that the Vette is still around and the Fiero...well it's gone. I agree with you about its potential, but I think even you will agree it could have been better than it was.

No you didnt upset me. I just like defending the fiero. I just think the fiero was killed to soon :( it had so much going for it in the years after it was killed the the Turbo and the Convertable


Yeah, no need in a flamefest as it won't prove a thing. If your into the Fiero I am sorry I upset you. I will point out, that the Vette is still around and the Fiero...well it's gone. I agree with you about its potential, but I think even you will agree it could have been better than it was.

I currently own an Alfa Spider.

The Spider holds 2 smallish golf carry bags and clubs, 1 in the trunk, another on the rear deck behind the seats. OK, so I have to take the driver out of the bag and lay it down separately in the trunk, but it fits.

It doesn't appear the Solstice will have a rear deck behind the seats.

Will the Solstice fit one or more golf bags in the trunk?

I have to agree about the fiero being a great car. I had an 88 GT and my wife had an 85. After my 88 I went to an 86 vette (it was used but hey I was only 19 when I went to the vette - I'm now 31). At the point I got the vette I thought I was getting the ultimate car...that thing had several challenges and by the time I got rid of it I was wishing I had my fiero again (I still think I liked the fiero more than the C4 vette). I am getting a C6 vette during the summer (at least ording one during the summer who knows when I will it will get delivered). If they still made the fiero today it would be a tough choice. I still have plans to get an 87 or 88 fiero GT and put a body kit on it, who knows when as work doesn't give me a lot of spare time.

Just my two cents worth.